Smart Money Podcast: How to Navigate Income Swings in a Creative Career
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Welcome to NerdWallet’s Smart Money podcast, where we answer your real-world money questions. In this episode:
Discover how to navigate financial uncertainty in a creative career with insights from a jazz saxophonist's personal journey.
How can creative professionals manage financial uncertainty in their careers? What are the essential financial strategies for artists dealing with fluctuating income? Hosts Sean Pyles and Abby Badach Doyle discuss the financial challenges in creative careers and strategies for overcoming them to help you understand how to thrive financially while pursuing your passion. They begin with a discussion of the unique financial hurdles faced by musicians, artists, and writers, with tips and tricks on managing unpredictable income, the importance of saving, and maintaining mental health amidst financial instability.
Then, jazz saxophonist Roger Romero joins Abby to discuss his personal journey to a full-time music career. They discuss the support systems needed for a successful creative career, the logistics of managing seasonal income, and advice for aspiring artists who are considering full-time careers pursuing their passions. Romero's insights provide valuable lessons on building a supportive community, continuously learning and developing skills, and the importance of financial planning for long-term success.
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Episode transcript
This transcript was generated from podcast audio by an AI tool.
Sean Pyles:
Trying to make money in a creative pursuit is not easy. Just ask any actor, writer, painter, or musician, and they'll likely tell you a story of starting out with little money, and ending up with, well, probably still not a lot of money. Today we're going to talk about some of the financial challenges that are unique to creatives and a few ideas for meeting those challenges. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. I'm Sean Pyles.
Abby Badach Doyle:
And I'm Abby Badach Doyle.
Sean Pyles:
Welcome to the Smart Money host chair, Abby.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Delighted to be here, Sean.
Sean Pyles:
So, today we are exploring what it takes to succeed in a creative endeavor, and hopefully make some money at it, too. Pursuing the creative arts is not an easy career path, but if you're in the creative industry, you're probably not doing it for the money, you're doing it for the absolute love of it, whether it's photography, music, theater, writing, or beyond. These are pursuits that come from the soul.
Abby Badach Doyle:
That's right, Sean. But it doesn't mean that you don't need to make a living. Pardon the double negative. So, today we're going to talk with a musician who's experienced the financial ups and downs of pursuing a professional career with his saxophone.
Sean Pyles:
Love it. And it's not like it's impossible to make a living as a musical artist. According to the career site Indeed.com, the average salary for a musician in the US is just shy of $53,000 a year. Another career site, Zippia.com, put the average salary for a pro musician at between $25,000, and $127,000 a year. So, quite the range there, but it can be a long road to significant financial success. So, Abby, you brought this idea to us. What prompted it for you? Are you a musician?
Abby Badach Doyle:
I am, Sean. I'm a songwriter and a performer, mostly violin, and I play a little guitar. I grew up in a family of musicians, and I actually met my husband at an open mic 14 years ago, and we've been playing gigs together ever since.
Sean Pyles:
Oh, that's great. Well, I grooved out with the sax when I was in sixth grade, and that was the extent of my musical career, but I did enjoy it. I just feel bad for my mom, who had to listen to me practice hot cross buns over, and over after school.
Abby Badach Doyle:
I'm sure your mom loved every minute of it, but she's probably not surprised you didn't go into music for a career.
Sean Pyles:
Yeah, she does enjoy the podcast, so at least there's that. Well, listener, we want to hear what you think too. Are you trying to make it as a musician, or any other artist type career? We would love to hear about it or anything else you'd like to share about your money lives. Leave us a voicemail or text the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD, or email a voice memo to [email protected]. So, Abby, who are we hearing from today?
Abby Badach Doyle:
Today I'm talking with Roger Romero, who also goes by the stage name Feral Cat. He's a musician, artist, composer, and educator based in Pittsburgh. Roger plays jazz saxophone, and he calls himself a DIY emo musician. We're going to hear the story of his early beginnings in music, and how he created a career for himself. And all of the music you'll hear in this interview is composed and played by Roger.
Sean Pyles:
That's coming up in just a moment. Stay with us.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Roger, welcome to Smart Money. Thanks for joining us.
Roger Romero:
Hey, yeah, thanks for having me.
Abby Badach Doyle:
How was your day, and what have you been up to?
Roger Romero:
I spent the majority of my morning doing video editing for a music release I'll have.
Abby Badach Doyle:
And is that a typical day for you, or does every day look a little bit different?
Roger Romero:
Every day does look a little bit different. I have a rehearsal later this evening, but there's plenty of time during the daytime for me to just kind of get other work done, and chill sometimes.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Chilling is important. So, tell us a little bit about where and how you grew up. What originally sparked your interest in music?
Roger Romero:
First off, I grew up in a relatively musical family. I feel like “relatively” is definitely downplaying it. My grandfather was a composer and both of my parents met in their college band in the Dominican Republic. So, I've always had it around. Music has been a deep part of just the culture of what's happening in the house. My parents saw that I was doing well in music pretty early on, and eventually we even moved schools to a space where the music program was stronger, played clarinet to start in fourth grade, went on to play saxophone in sixth grade, it was handed to me by my band director. I then moved schools and changed from playing a soprano saxophone to a tenor saxophone. I grew up enough to be able to hold the instrument, which is kind of important. When you're small, some of these instruments are too big.
And even in middle school I had a saxophone trio called Fluid Jazz. It's corny and dorky to look back, but I just love that little piece of myself. Developed a sax trio, it was me on tenor, and then a friend of mine on alto, and another friend of mine on bari, and we had gigs like seventh, or eighth grade. I don't know how much they paid. I don't remember that at all.
Abby Badach Doyle:
So, it took a little while to start getting the paid gigs.
Roger Romero:
I mean, it took a little while even as an adult, there was a dip in the middle of it where it was like, no, nothing's paying me, and then suddenly things pay me again.
Abby Badach Doyle:
So, coming from a family of musicians, were they supportive of your decision to pursue music professionally, or did it take a little bit of work for them to understand?
Roger Romero:
My parents specifically wanted to support what I was doing. I was fortunate that they gave me reins to basically decide what I wanted to do with my life. I went to college for engineering at Carnegie Mellon, and in doing that I was creating a safety net for myself that was encouraged for sure by my parents and by outside forces, the economy. And all those thoughts were spinning through my head when I was 17, like "How do I actually sustain this? How do I create this career?" And so at first I decided that I would go for engineering, get a real job, and work through music either on the side or in whatever capacity I was afforded. And then after college I got a real job, and I got laid off from that real job after about a year and some change.
And within that, there was kind of like a deciding point whether or not I choose to pursue grad school in my major or in whatever I was studying in school, or do I decidedly just go for it. And at that point in time I decided I was going to go for it and I took odd jobs. I was a server, I was like a blog writer, whatever could fill out and pad out the rest of it. And I started working.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Do you have student loans still from your undergrad degree?
Roger Romero:
I do.
Abby Badach Doyle:
How does that fit into the mix for you?
Roger Romero:
Well, when it comes to my student loans, I spent a lot of time deferring them, and at some points there was a natural null deferment, which was good. I didn't actually have to pay attention to my student loans for about a couple of years. But the interest continues to accrue, and this may be called the Smart Money Podcast, but I do not personally think that when it comes to my student loans, I am doing an intelligent job.
Abby Badach Doyle:
So, thinking about your first day job, and that layoff experience, and you were thinking about that being a jumping off point to pursue music full time, did you consider finances in that decision? What was that decision making experience like?
Roger Romero:
Yeah, finances were probably the major concern. I was unemployed for six months directly after being laid off from the job, where I collected unemployment. I didn't get a severance or anything like that, but I was flat broke. I was losing money consistently, because unemployment wasn't quite covering all of the bills, and I couldn't work at the time. But then once I found work, it still wasn't quite enough, at least to start, because I was largely just a server, or working this odd job. And then once some music gigs, some professional paid hired gun gigs started to come through. I remember I was working at a speakeasy that had live music. I met musicians, and I met someone that introduced me to this wedding band cycle. And so I started to get kind of gigging work through that. But really it started to be that me both playing with my friends and playing in a couple of these professional networks started to build out my actual career.
Financially, it really just sucked for a good year at least. I'm not really sure how I even managed it. I took on credit debt that I still have. Well, not the same debt, I don't know. I feel like debt just kind of rolls around for me. It's there. It is an active part of my life, and is usually a part of my decision making when it comes to whether or not I can take these risks, whether or not I can create a jumping off point. I found my way towards making an amount of income through music, but it never quite filled all of the financial gaps, and still doesn't. This is a long game, and it's a lot of investing in yourself, and for the most part, talking yourself out of, are you continuously stupid for trying? You're battling a lot of different sides of this. There's finance, but there's also mental health, and there's also just anything else that you can think of in life that might feed into whether or not you decide to take a risk.
Abby Badach Doyle:
So, can you walk us through the nuts and bolts of your sources of income right now, and what kind of gigs you're stringing together?
Roger Romero:
So, especially since I started taking a lot more professional music work, the seasons determine a lot of when I'm busy. Between December and February, for example, I don't do a lot of performances, but when March through October rolls around, and especially during the summer, I am usually, or typically, booked out. Sometimes it depends on the month, but I could be working five to 15 gigs a month during the summer, and so that provides an amount of income. My W-2 work is teaching, so I make up some of the income working at an afterschool program, teaching production and also doing private lessons.
Abby Badach Doyle:
How do you balance the seasonal income that might be a little bit unpredictable? How does that flow into your household day-to-day expenses?
Roger Romero:
You learn how to save in a certain way, and I don't always follow through in the way that I expect to year to year, but being busy during the summer means I am net positive. And whereas in December, January, February, I will be net negative. So, the three months typically balance themselves out to where I am usually in the same financial space every year. I think I'm going to die somewhere between December and February, and in June I'm like, I don't know if I need to, I don't want to work this much, but I do. I love it every time I get on the stage, but just looking at the schedule sometimes freaks you out. I know musicians who are 10 times busier than I am.
I know there's a way to make music the end all be all financially, but I've also found some amount of solace in teaching. I enjoy it, I enjoy the work of it, and I enjoy connecting with students. And so some piece of me likes the balance, and the balance is what has allowed me to get through, because I still have income during those winter months because of teaching, but I use and dip into some of the savings I've created during the summer.
Abby Badach Doyle:
With most of your income coming from these unpredictable gigs, how do you tap your network to find work, whether it's a new place to play, or someone who's looking for lessons, that kind of stuff?
Roger Romero:
Social media, typically. Let's say if I look ahead a couple of months, and see fewer gigs than I actually would've hoped for, then first of all, in working for a number of years, at least at this point, I have relationships with certain spaces where I can reach out and say, "Hey, are you interested in me coming in a couple of times this summer to play?" And I feel like a number of the folks that I've met for my work are either through social media or through word of mouth. A lot of the groups that I create or a lot of the bands that I've made are through meeting people at a jam session, or meeting people at an open mic. A lot of these spaces are like school, almost. You go there, and you learn from the elders that are performing, but you're also sitting there with your classmates taking notes. But the act of sitting there with your classmates and talking about these things is what develops you, and you start to build your own network through these folks, and through the folks that they're connected to.
Abby Badach Doyle:
So, when you took that leap to pursuing music full-time, did you have any big startup costs like a home studio or investing in additional gear, that kind of thing?
Roger Romero:
To start, there were a couple of gear investments. For example, I wanted to have a microphone to clip on, but that wasn't as necessary as it was just something that I felt was a good investment for myself. But no, when I started as a saxophone player, I had already had this instrument since I was 15 years old. But at some point during my career, I decidedly did a lot more music production. So, at that point in time, the gear costs started to go up. I had to buy computers, monitors, audio equipment, microphones, cables. So over the last four or five years, I've kind of built up my studio space. I didn't have to do any crazy investments at the beginning, but as my career moved forward, I wanted more professional equipment. I wanted a better case for myself, because I was moving around a lot.
In general, I spaced out a lot of these purchases because I felt like that was the only way I could really do it. And it wasn't necessarily intentionally that way. It was just this is the time I'm going to get a case. This is the time I'm going to get a new computer. And that was over a few years. I definitely spend somewhere between $3,000 and $5,000 a year on musical equipment. I also have repair costs for my saxophone. I get it tuned up every six months, and now I have multiple saxophones, so that's multiple tune-ups.
Abby Badach Doyle:
And in terms of your day-to-day expenses, what are the biggest day-to-day expenses that you incur as a musician?
Roger Romero:
One thing that definitely I feel like noting is the cost of being out. The cost of actually going to network. And there is often a $20 to $30 ticket price here in Pittsburgh, it's more expensive in most other cities for a bar low ticket price, and also buying a drink, being social. There's often those day-to-day expenses. Depending on where you are at the gig, I will also have to eat. If you're fortunate enough, the venue or the promoter or someone will have some means for you to eat during the performance or before the performance or after the performance. But just as often as not, you have to figure out your own way, which I guess for most people that doesn't really seem that bad, but sometimes you're just not making that much during the gig.
And it's helpful to have just different means of people... Different means of hospitality. It really does help more times than not for there to just be a pizza there. But outside of that, there are the bigger costs. But really it's the cost of being out, and my office becomes the bar or wherever else I'm working, and I have office expenses, the bar.
Abby Badach Doyle:
So, with all of these assorted business expenses, what does tax season look like for you?
Roger Romero:
I do keep a couple of different Excel spreadsheets of my expenses. So, there's usually just a separate spreadsheet for hospitality expenses, so my drinks and stuff like that. As a composer, though, I take a lot of liberty with being a composer here because I write, and I seek inspiration for writing. So a lot of the time I treat things like video games, television as expenses, because I'm actively learning from them. Sometimes I'm passively learning from them. I mean everyone else is mostly passively learning from them. But I will often take something from a video game, and it is deeply inspirational to me. That's where a lot of my musical prowess comes from, and a lot of the things that I learn from. And so that's there. My car, having a vehicle is entirely necessary as a musician. Depending on what instrument you play, and what city you are in, you might get away with a backpack with your instrument.
I've seen in New York, at least, a keyboardist will have this giant keyboard backpack just hanging behind them. But no, most of the time you should have a car. And that's always going to be several expenses. Insurance, the car payment if you still haven't finished it off, and maintenance repairs, which are more expensive than the saxophone. So those are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. But yeah, I keep expense reports for everything, and I keep my receipts. And generally speaking, when it comes to tax time, I gather all these 1099s. I gather my W-2. I spend probably a full day's worth, eight to 12 hours just looking through everything, and making sure that I input all the information that I have, if there's receipts still left in my car, or anything like that. And yeah, tax season's pretty brutal. I get super jealous, because my partner has one job, and so tax season is 15 minutes. And for me, I'm like, no, this is a whole event.
Abby Badach Doyle:
What was the best advice that someone gave you about pursuing a career in music?
Roger Romero:
Don't do it. I feel like a lot of the best advice I've gotten in reality has nothing to do with how well you play, and everything to do with how you come off, and how you present yourself within a space. I have been guilty of being just insular, especially the last couple of years since COVID. But the idea that you're just nice, you learn your parts, and you do well enough on stage, either if the art, or if the music is looking for performance. When I say performance, I mean someone really being showy, or showing off on stage. It's about how you present yourself. But the best advice is just be nice, and learn your stuff. Know what you're doing before and after you get on stage.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Are you ever tempted to just have a normal job that you don't have to stress about the financial aspects so much, or are the tradeoffs worth it?
Roger Romero:
I'm tempted constantly. It's not off the table yet for me to have a completely normal job. But what is kind of off the table is me not making music or me not playing music. I'm addicted to this drug. I love performing. I love being on stage. I love telling a crowd what to do in a fun way. I love expressing myself with a crowd and having that feedback. And there was a point in time where I was afraid of the stage. I had stage fright, and now I'm more nearly afraid of the bar. I'm so confident and comfortable on a stage that being off-stage is a little bit harder for me.
And the idea that I take a normal job no matter what is always just going to be towards this other goal. And I think that's hurt me in hiring for sure, and actually trying to get a job because it's hard to convey, "Yes, I want work, I want to survive, but also my passions are over there, way over there." And to sum it up, I would love a normal job, but also there's no way I can give up the way I feel about music.
Abby Badach Doyle:
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any musician or creative who chooses that path because they love the unpredictability of the financial aspect of it.
Roger Romero:
No, I also know folks who have found those very, very small percentages of steady income music jobs where you work six hours, four nights a week, and you make some upper five figure salary, or something like that. And so it's doable, it's livable, it's comfortable. And that exists for some, but that is so few and far in between.
Abby Badach Doyle:
How do you balance having creative artistic goals, and then also having financial goals? Do you envision yourself paying off the student loans or buying a house? What are your financial goals that you're working toward?
Roger Romero:
I’m so deeply millennial, I have no idea how I would ever get a house. Not in this day and age, not the way I look at my finances. I'm working towards beating down the White House until they decidedly get rid of my student loans so that financially I could decide on anything else. I would love to own a home or a condo or an apartment in a city. So financially, that's definitely a big part of it. But the other part is I think my biggest financial goal is to comfortably retire my parents, because they've just put so much into me and my brothers who, spoiler alert, my younger brothers, two of them, are both musicians and active and incredible at this work as well.
So we're all kind of in on this together. We got all this support from our parents. And we are crazy fortunate for that because that is not typically the story. It's usually they will tell you, "No, it makes no financial sense. Go get a better job. What do you mean? Why would you do this to yourself?" And instead, my parents are like, "No, I see it. You guys are good, and you believe in yourselves, and this is important." So I want to get them a nice big house, and have the capability to just let them rest, and they can come watch us on tour whenever they want.
Abby Badach Doyle:
What would you say has been the most rewarding part about your career in music thus far?
Roger Romero:
It has something to do with continuous learning like this. The most rewarding part of it for me actually just feels like the journey. It just sucks that it's so hard to pay for the journey. But I like learning new skills. I like that music constantly pushes me into new spaces that I wouldn't necessarily think of. It forces me to learn how to market. It forces me to learn how to create things on my computer and on my phone. It forces a lot of different skills, and whether or not you do them exceptionally, some people are just not interested in these pieces, and they're more interested in the full music of it. And even then, I love that part of it where you continue to grow as a musician and you develop your skills technically, and your ear. And the reward for me is creating something great, and to continue making something great, and to hopefully have other people respond in a way that is wholesome, and is genuine to them.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Has that creative fulfillment been worth the trade-off of that unpredictability?
Roger Romero:
It has to be, for me at least. I still think that there might be a future for me where I am creating and decidedly making financial stability, and then having music, if not through music, then through some other means. But financial stability is very much the goal. And there are some avenues of it through music if and when more people listen to it. You could technically create passive income through streaming websites like YouTube and Spotify and things like that. It might've been easier 40 years ago for me to say, "This is how I will keep making money is royalties, or something like this." But no, it's just to continue making work so that at some level, some part of it is passive income enough for me to be financially stable.
Abby Badach Doyle:
What advice would you give to someone who's crunching the numbers and thinking about taking that leap and pursuing a career in music you did all those years ago?
Roger Romero:
Some part of me is like, don't have a backup plan, because if you need to do this, you will do it. And for me, kind of weaving around the backup plan for most of my life feels like perhaps I could have spent that time really diving into making it work. But for someone who's about to take a financial risk enough to be a musician, you should really be sure, because there's not really a lot of room for the “maybe.” It's not that you can't play and you can't enjoy yourself. But yeah, if you really want to make that risk, just be really sure you want to make that risk, because there is no financial guarantee. And have a support system of some kind, friends, family, someone that you can just crash on their couch if things get bad, don't go at it alone for sure. Try and find either a community of like minded people or just a space where you can feel safe.
Abby Badach Doyle:
Roger Romero, thank you so much for talking through your life with us today.
Roger Romero:
Oh, well, thanks for having me.
Sean Pyles:
Abby, I can't help but wonder if my life might look a little bit more like Roger's if I had stuck with the sax like he did. But what Roger said about a creative career being a long game, and that investing in yourself is one of the most important parts, really rings true for me. Whether you are a musician or a painter or even a podcaster, getting what you want from your passions takes diligence, hard work, and also no small amount of financial planning.
Abby Badach Doyle:
For sure. And if you're looking to make a living doing this, it's not just about your chops as a musician, it's about building a reputation, right? Being genuine and being kind goes a long way. I loved Roger's advice about finding a community of like-minded people, but you kind of have to stick your neck out there a little bit to find those folks. For musicians and artists in particular, what Roger said about the cost of being out is really big. You're getting out there, you're networking, you're spending money to eventually make money. And it's great that he has a system to keep track of all of those expenses, because that little stuff really adds up. And a well-organized system makes things so much easier for gig workers during tax season.
Sean Pyles:
The message here for anyone hoping to pursue a career in the creative arts, including music, is don't give up. It is possible to make a living doing the thing that you love. It might take a while to get there and the journey might be a twisty one, but it is possible.
Abby Badach Doyle:
And since you're a creative, think creatively about what you can do with your skills to make money while you're trying to become the best at what you're doing. Like Roger, maybe you teach while you're gigging. But it's like you said, Sean, if it's something you really love, and you want to spend your life doing, don't give up. Find a way. Because clearly Roger went through it a few times, but he's a professional saxophone player. He did it.
Sean Pyles:
Well, Abby, thank you so much for bringing this story to us.
Abby Badach Doyle:
My pleasure. That's all we have for this episode. Do you have a money question of your own? Turn to the Nerds, and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. You can also email us at [email protected]. Also visit nerdwallet.com/podcast for more info on this episode. And remember to follow, rate and review us wherever you're getting this podcast.
Sean Pyles:
This episode was produced by Tess Vigeland. I helped with editing. Kevin Berry helped with fact checking. Sara Brink mixed our audio. And a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all their help.
Abby Badach Doyle:
And here's our brief disclaimer. We are not financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.
Sean Pyles:
And with that said, until next time, turn to the Nerds.
